New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

Postby Olivier GARDE » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:45 pm

All details on this link :
https://forum.vdsastro.de/download/file.php?id=7689

And the German spectro forum for more information :
https://forum.vdsastro.de/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=5335

Only LHIRES III spectrograph at this time R>=10000 (maybe echelle spectrum in the futur)
LHIRES III #5, LISA, e-Shel, C14, RC400 Astrosib, AP1600
http://o.garde.free.fr/astro/Spectro1/Bienvenue.html
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Re: New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

Postby Christian Buil » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:06 am

La procédure affichée pour pouvoir participer à ce programme est totalement délirante. Je suis sidéré que les "responsables" demandent, en 2018, les images RAW, les flat, etc. Si je faisais cela, ce serait 10 à 20 Mo de data à expédier chaque nuit, et cela multiplié par le nombre d'observateurs... Et en plus, ils ne savent pas traiter les spectres échelles. C'est à fuir absolument pour ce qui me concerne tellement c'est peu sérieux.

Le travail fait ici a pour pour objectif que les observateurs se responsabilises et soit autonomes. On est complètement à l'inverse dans cette demande : l'amateur est réduit à un fournisseur d'octets. NON !

Et puis Robin pose aussi la bonne question : comment le travail des amateurs est-il valorisé... je crois qu'il y a quelques raisons pour effectivement s'interroger !

Christian B
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Re: New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

Postby Olivier GARDE » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:21 am

Christian,

oups j’avais pas vu les contraintes au niveaux des spectres...

C’est sur que c’est délirant de demander tout le jeux d’images bruts cela peut faire plusieurs centaines de Mo pour chaque observation.
LHIRES III #5, LISA, e-Shel, C14, RC400 Astrosib, AP1600
http://o.garde.free.fr/astro/Spectro1/Bienvenue.html
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Re: New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

Postby Robin Leadbeater » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:53 am

Hello Christian, Oliver,

A similar procedure was used for the successful Convento group collaborations on WR140 and WR134 . (A post grad student does all the reduction to give consistent results)

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2011MNRAS.418....2F
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2016MNRAS.460.3407A

but I agree, individual images is probably more than is neccessary. Just the preprocessed star and lamp images would be more sensible I would say.

Cheers
Robin
LHIRES III #29 ATIK314 ALPY 600/200 ATIK428 Star Analyser 100/200 C11 EQ6
http://www.threehillsobservatory.co.uk
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Re: New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

Postby Andrew Smith » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:07 am

Christian, I have been in contact with them. They a two young astronomers just starting out and trying to set up this work. They have managed to secure some professional support.

They are concerned that they need to process the data themselves as they have been told amateur software can cause problem in such campaigns. They don't have the experience to judge for themselves.

I have not addressed this issue with them directly as I only have echelle spectra to offer and they don't have the knowledge to process it.

I would propose you engage with them on the VdS site to point out the issues and give them confidence in what ISIS can deliver.

They are a new generation of observers and I think we should try to encourage them. They will make mistakes as we all do.

Regards Andrew
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Re: New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

Postby Christian Buil » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:41 pm

Mon commentaire concernait mon avis personnel ("en ce qui me concerne", dans le texte).
C'est vrai que je l'ai exprimé franchement, mais c'est le fond de ma propre opinion.

Bien sur, tout observateur qui veut participer à ce programme en suivant
ce protocole est bien sur libre de le faire. On n'oblige personne ici, et bien au contraire
il est vivement recommandé de participer à ce type de campagne et on l'encourage.


My comment concerned my personal opinion ("as far as I am concerned" un the text).
It is true that I expressed it frankly, but it is the bottom of my own opinion.

Of course, any observer who wants to participate in this program by following this protocol
is of course free to do so. We do not oblige anyone here, and on the contrary it is highly recommended
to participate in this type of campaign and we encourage it.


Christian
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Re: New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

Postby Joan Guarro Flo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:52 pm

Hello,

Days ago, I read the observation program of the Yellow Hypergiants. I saw that working conditions are a "bit" absurd and difficult to do. What they ask seems to be caused by lack of experience.

  In response, I observed the HD217476, I uploaded the results to VdS, as well as the FIT file with the intention that they could "play" with the graph, which as you can see, have only downloaded it twice. ( it must be enough ).

It is also worth saying that, within the VdS, the "professional" systems for observing and reducing data are only prestigious. Sometimes I have tried to propose without success other types of practices. I don't criticize it, I just want to say that they have other ways to work.

My diagnosis is: A great lack of observational practice.

Everything they ask for is achievable, the cost is a great expense of time. Time that I don't have.

Regards, Joan.
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Re: New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

Postby Andrew Smith » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:27 am

Joan - I suspect that it has "only" been downloaded twice as the project is run by two amateurs Christoph and Malin.

All, yes they are new young astronomers just starting out (Malin is still at school) but they have captured a nice set of spectra (which they have shared with me) and are doing their own analysis which has impressed the professionals that are now supporting them.

They have adopted an approach that suits their analysis. Its not how I would have done it but when I asked they responded with good reasoned arguments.

I know how easy it is to misunderstand comments made in a second language but I find it sad and disappointing that senior colleagues, who I have great respect for, have chosen to criticise and pass comment about Christoph, Malin and their project on this site indirectly rather than respond directly to them on the VdS site as Robin Leadbeater did.

I shall support them as best I can.

Regards Andrew
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Re: New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

Postby Joan Guarro Flo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:41 pm

Hi Andrew,

It is not my intention to criticize people. What happens is that it must be a good writer for not injuring susceptibilities, the written letter is very harsh, this happens with all the languages, therefore, read this with a smile. I have written what I have written, because I participated firsthand, watching the HD217476, not apologizing to anyone for doing so.

I have explained the facts, (I do not put myself with people, for me it is very honorable for everyone), as I have been seeing from my little corner of the world. What I have written, is as I see it, it is a narration of facts.

What I will not do is enter to re-preach to VdS my way of seeing things, in Catalan language we say that "there are many ways to kill flies", that is, there are several options to do things.

In the almost two years I am at VdS, I have tried, (with the best touch I'm capable of) some times, to give opinions about the possible improvements that could be supposed, our way of working. I was not too welcoming and now this time I do not think I'll try again.

I also liked collaborating with VdS, directly or indirectly, in some observation programs (I think two or maybe three), and I would gladly see it again for this new Yellow Hypergiants project, but with previous requirements that I do not understand and that can only be due to the lack of observational practice (this is my opinion), I do not have time to do it. On the other hand, it is not a crime to have no observational practice, this does not pay attention to anyone's honor.

In some of my writings on VdS, I have also spoken of a possible, fluid and good relationship with ARAS. I think everyone would win, but it seems we're talking about two parallel worlds. Who is capable of renouncing a cemtimeter of his "truth"?

Best wishes, Joan.
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Re: New pro/am collaboration with a LHIRES III

Postby etienne bertrand » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:18 pm

Pour donner mon avis, je comprends et trouves légitime que l'on demande le maximum de renseignements quand on ne connais pas la personne, quand c'est un amateur face à un pro, c'est normal je penses pour vérifier les résultats et être sûr de la procédure de réduction de données, mais si c'est à faire à chaque fois c'est vrai, c'est délicat.
En tant qu'amateur c'est le coté "chercheur" libre qui m'a fait arriver à la spectroscopie, n'ayant pas le bagage scientifique, j'aime ce coté de praticien qui va regarder/admirer/gratter un peu tous les objets pour mieux les comprendre et trouver de nouvelles façons de les étudier ''par soi même". C'est ce qui me plait dans les collaborations comme les étoiles Be, les symbiotique/cataclysmiques, RR Lyr, les comètes... c'est passionnant.
Si mon apport dans une collaboration se trouve seulement à alimenter des données que l'on va pas me permettre de réduire car étant amateur, ou si on veut contrôler tout ce que je fais, mon rôle s'en retrouve diminuer à technicien sans savoir faire et personnellement j'accroche pas trop.
Ca me parait aussi problématique et dans le fond si ce ne sont que les données qui intéressent, pourquoi ne pas les "vendre" car elles ont demandé de l'huile de coude et beaucoup d'investissement personnel et financier....

Etant amateur pour ma part c'est un peu vexant, alors quand la personne sait fabriquer de nombreux spectroscopes et créer des logiciels comme Christian je comprends sa réaction.
Ca peut être aussi l'occasion de remercier Christian pour tout ce qu'il a fait pour les amateurs, car ça nous permet de grandir et de s'élever indépendement... (j'aurais jamais pensé faire de la spectro, astrophysique....). Bravo
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